From: the.millionaire@vert.synchro.net.remove-a12-this

When Synchronet is binarily compiled from C what language does it use? Is it Assembler?

$ The Millionaire $
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From: nightfox@DIGDIST.remove-8ej-this

To: The Millionaire
Re: Synchronet BBS Compiling
By: The Millionaire to All on Sat Nov 30 2019 06:40 am

When Synchronet is binarily compiled from C what language does it use? Is it Assembler?

I'm not sure I understand your question. As far as I know, Synchronet is primarily written in C++. I'm not sure if there is any assembler written by Digital Man in the Synchronet code base. But as any compiled program, it gets compiled into a binary
executable and the DLLs, which all contain machine language, and you could see the instructions in assembly language at that point.

Nightfox

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From: gamgee@PALANT.remove-35d-this

To: The Millionaire

The Millionaire wrote to All <=-

When Synchronet is binarily compiled from C what language does it
use?

Ummmmmmmm....... C.

Is it Assembler?

No. It's C (and C++).


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From: the.millionaire@vert.synchro.net.remove-wjj-this

To: Gamgee
C++ can run like machine language? No program cannot run efficiently like machine language can.

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From: nightfox@DIGDIST.remove-1ra-this

To: The Millionaire
Re: Re: Synchronet BBS Compiling
By: The Millionaire to Gamgee on Sat Nov 30 2019 07:37 pm

C++ can run like machine language? No program cannot run efficiently like machine language can.

I've often heard it said that hand-optimized assembly code can run faster than code compiled from a higher-level language like C or C++. But compilers have optimizations, and I've heard that modern compilers these days are pretty good at generating
machine code that's as optimal as possible from the source language.

Are you going to want to write all your software in assembly language? ;)

Nightfox

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From: the.millionaire@vert.synchro.net.remove-ets-this

To: Nightfox

Re: Re: Synchronet BBS Compiling
By: The Millionaire to Gamgee on Sat Nov 30 2019 07:37 pm

I've often heard it said that hand-optimized assembly code can run faster than code compiled from a higher-level language like C or C++. But compilers have optimizations, and I've heard that modern compilers these days are pretty good at generating machine code that's as optimal as possible from the source language.

Are you going to want to write all your software in assembly language? ;)

Nightfox

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In the olden days most software was written in Assembler. It was the standard back then for all the commercial games and whatnot.

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From: gamgee@PALANT.remove-8gu-this

To: The Millionaire

The Millionaire wrote to Gamgee <=-

C++ can run like machine language? No program cannot run
efficiently like machine language can.

<sigh> Since you (again) didn't bother to quote anything when you
replied, it's difficult to remember what you're referring to. I
guess it's about your question regarding what "language"
Synchronet is compiled in. The question itself makes no sense.
The program(s) are written in C and/or C++. They are then
compiled by a compiler for that language, and produce executable
files. Even a program written in Assembler is compiled by a
compiler for that language. I don't think you actually understand
this.

Please remember to quote some context when you write replies to
messages.



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From: nightfox@DIGDIST.remove-j2o-this

To: The Millionaire
Re: Re: Synchronet BBS Compiling
By: The Millionaire to Nightfox on Sun Dec 01 2019 03:43 am

In the olden days most software was written in Assembler. It was the standard back then for all the commercial games and whatnot.

Yes, in the early days of computers. But soon, higher level programming languages like COBOL and FORTRAN came out. I think those are a couple of the oldest programming languages I know of.

Nightfox

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From: netsurge@1:229/101.remove-68a-this

To: Nightfox

Are you going to want to write all your software in assembly language? ;)

I'd pay to see that code.

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From: nightfox@DIGDIST.remove-cyq-this

To: Gamgee
Re: Re: Synchronet BBS Compiling
By: Gamgee to The Millionaire on Sun Dec 01 2019 07:59 am

files. Even a program written in Assembler is compiled by a
compiler for that language. I don't think you actually understand
this.

I once said something similar to one of my assembly instructors in college, and
he corrected me saying an assembly program is "assembled" rather than being compiled. I think compiling refers to the process of converting a higher-level
language (such as
C/C++ etc.) into machine code, and assembly is already pretty much machine code.

Nightfox

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From: dan.clough@1:123/115.remove-xnl-this

To: Nightfox

Nightfox wrote to Gamgee <=-

files. Even a program written in Assembler is compiled by a
compiler for that language. I don't think you actually understand
this.

I once said something similar to one of my assembly instructors
in college, and he corrected me saying an assembly program is
"assembled" rather than being compiled. I think compiling refers
to the process of converting a higher-level language (such as
C/C++ etc.) into machine code, and assembly is already pretty
much machine code.

Absolutely correct. I think I was subconsciously over-simplifying
things in an attempt to get 'TM' to grasp it.

Full disclosure on my programming skill set - the last time I was
actually semi-seriously (hobby-level) programming, I was using
Borland's Turbo Pascal in MSDOS... :-) But I do know that
Borland also made a product called Turbo ASM.



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From: the.millionaire@vert.synchro.net.remove-x6t-this

To: Dan Clough

Absolutely correct. I think I was subconsciously over-simplifying
things in an attempt to get 'TM' to grasp it.

Full disclosure on my programming skill set - the last time I was
actually semi-seriously (hobby-level) programming, I was using
Borland's Turbo Pascal in MSDOS... :-) But I do know that
Borland also made a product called Turbo ASM.

... Windows 3.1 - From the people who brought you EDLIN.
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Turbo Pascal is what Windows is written with.

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From: rampage@SESTAR.remove-iwy-this

To: The Millionaire
Re: Re: Synchronet BBS Compiling
By: The Millionaire to Dan Clough on Tue Dec 03 2019 20:44:13

Turbo Pascal is what Windows is written with.

not by a long shot... especially since billG and partners develop(ed) their own
implementations of various high level languages...


)\/(ark

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From: dan.clough@1:123/115.remove-97r-this

To: The Millionaire

The Millionaire wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Absolutely correct. I think I was subconsciously over-simplifying
things in an attempt to get 'TM' to grasp it.

Full disclosure on my programming skill set - the last time I was
actually semi-seriously (hobby-level) programming, I was using
Borland's Turbo Pascal in MSDOS... :-) But I do know that
Borland also made a product called Turbo ASM.

Turbo Pascal is what Windows is written with.

Ummmmmmm...... No.

It is C (and variants), with some Assembly.

https://social.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/65a1fe05-9c1d-48bf-bd40-148e6b3da9f1/what-programming-language-is-windows-written-in?forum=windowshpcacademic



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From: nightfox@DIGDIST.remove-yfn-this

To: The Millionaire
Re: Re: Synchronet BBS Compiling
By: The Millionaire to Dan Clough on Tue Dec 03 2019 08:44 pm

Turbo Pascal is what Windows is written with.

uh.. No. Where did you hear that?

There's a Microsoft forum where a Microsoft employee says it's written almost entirely in C, C++, and C#:
https://bit.ly/2PcqgH7

Full URL: https://social.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/65a1fe05-9c1d-48bf-bd40-148e6b3da9f1/
what-programming-language-is-windows-written-in

Nightfox

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From: netsurge@1:229/101.remove-11d9-this

To: Dan Clough

Turbo Pascal is what Windows is written with.

Ummmmmmm...... No.

We all know it was written in MS BASIC.

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From: paul.quinn@3:640/1384.125.remove-11d9-this

To: Netsurge
Hi! Frank,

On 12/05/2019 03:37 PM, you wrote to Dan Clough:

Turbo Pascal is what Windows is written with.

Ummmmmmm...... No.

We all know it was written in MS BASIC.

And some C+- (Pronounced "C More or Less").

Cheers,
Paul.

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From: gamgee@PALANT.remove-ctd-this

To: Netsurge

Netsurge wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Turbo Pascal is what Windows is written with.

Ummmmmmm...... No.

We all know it was written in MS BASIC.

Yes, of course. That's why it's so fast.


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From: poindexter.fortran@REALITY.remove-sxa-this

To: Paul Quinn

Paul Quinn wrote to Netsurge <=-

And some C+- (Pronounced "C More or Less").

You'd take the integer variable C, evaluate it, add 1 and subtract 1, giving you C. You forgot the trailing semicolon...

I just had a flashback to the C class I took last century.


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From: paul.quinn@3:640/1384.125.remove-tiw-this

To: poindexter FORTRAN
On 12/06/2019 01:16 AM, poindexter FORTRAN -> Paul Quinn wrote:

Paul Quinn wrote to Netsurge <=-

And some C+- (Pronounced "C More or Less").

You'd take the integer variable C, evaluate it, add 1 and subtract 1, giving
you C. You forgot the trailing semicolon...

I just had a flashback to the C class I took last century.

Hi! [name],

I get those myself, and (I) suffer migraine-like headaches when people describe difficulties they've encountered getting code to compile, purely out of sympathy with their strife. It's similar to the effects from long-term LSD use. Anyhow...

Unlike C++, C+- is a subject-oriented language.

Each C+- class instance, known as a subject, holds
hidden members, known as prejudices or undeclared
preferences, which are impervious to outside messages,
as well as public members known as boasts or claims.
The following C operators are overridden as shown:

> better than
< worse than
>> way better than
<< forget it
! not on your life
== comparable, other things being equal

C+- is a strongly typed language based on stereotyping
and self-righteous logic. The Boolean variables TRUE
and FALSE (known as constants in less realistic
languages) are supplemented with CREDIBLE and DUBIOUS,
which are fuzzier than Zadeh's traditional fuzzy
categories. All Booleans can be declared with the
modifiers strong and weak. Weak implication is said to
"preserve deniability" and was added at the request of
the DoD to ensure compatibility with future versions of
ADA. Well-formed falsehoods (WFFs) are assignment-
compatible with all booleans. What-if and why-not
interactions are aided by the special conditional
evenifnot X then Y.

C+- supports information hiding and, among friend
classes only, rumor sharing. Borrowing from the Eiffel
lexicon, non-friend classes can be killed by arranging
contracts. Note that friendships are intransitive,
volatile, and non-Abelian.

Operator precedence rules can be suspended with the
directive #pragma dwim, known as the "Do what I mean"
pragma.

ANSIfication will be firmly resisted. C+-'s
slogan is "Be Your Own Standard."


----------------------

Steve Sashihara
President, Princeton Consultants Inc.
2 Research Way, Princeton NJ

:)

Cheers,
Paul.

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From: poindexter.fortran@REALITY.remove-sxa-this

To: Netsurge

Netsurge wrote to Dan Clough <=-

Turbo Pascal is what Windows is written with.

Ummmmmmm...... No.

We all know it was written in MS BASIC.

Not sure if OP was trolling or clueless, but given the fact that Microsoft wrote their own compilers for almost every language out there at one time, using a competitor's IDE to write their own code seems like a huge risk.

Microsoft C was *the* platform for coding on x86 at the time, and Turbo
Pascal only wrote <64k .com files and their related overlays...


... What do you think of the guests?
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From: digital.man@vert.synchro.net.remove-x4n-this

To: Paul Quinn
Re: Synchronet BBS Compiling
By: Paul Quinn to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Dec 06 2019 08:14 am

Unlike C++, C+- is a subject-oriented language.

Sounds inspired-by INTERCAL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INTERCAL


digital man

Synchronet/BBS Terminology Definition #21:
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From: nightfox@DIGDIST.remove-bol-this

To: poindexter FORTRAN
Re: Re: Synchronet BBS Compiling
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Paul Quinn on Thu Dec 05 2019 07:16 am

You'd take the integer variable C, evaluate it, add 1 and subtract 1, giving you C. You forgot the trailing semicolon...

I don't think you can do this, and it seems to me you should be able to:
++C--;

And how about re-defining keywords with the pre-processor? A while ago, I heard about this trick for accessing private members of a class, for testing purposes (not that it's a great idea):
#define private public

Nightfox

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From: digital.man@vert.synchro.net.remove-bol-this

To: poindexter FORTRAN
Re: Re: Synchronet BBS Compiling
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Paul Quinn on Thu Dec 05 2019 07:16 am

Paul Quinn wrote to Netsurge <=-

And some C+- (Pronounced "C More or Less").

You'd take the integer variable C, evaluate it, add 1 and subtract 1, giving you C. You forgot the trailing semicolon...

I just had a flashback to the C class I took last century.

error: expected expression before ';' token
C+-;


digital man

Synchronet "Real Fact" #26:
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From: nightfox@DIGDIST.remove-dlj-this

To: Paul Quinn
Re: Synchronet BBS Compiling
By: Paul Quinn to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Dec 06 2019 08:14 am

Unlike C++, C+- is a subject-oriented language.

Each C+- class instance, known as a subject, holds
hidden members, known as prejudices or undeclared
preferences, which are impervious to outside messages,
as well as public members known as boasts or claims.
The following C operators are overridden as shown:

better than

< worse than

way better than

<< forget it
! not on your life
== comparable, other things being equal

Don't forget the "goes to" operator. For example:

for (int i = 10; i --> 0; i--)

Basically, with i starting at 10 and goes to 0.

Nightfox

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From: poindexter.fortran@REALITY.remove-sv1-this

To: Nightfox
Re: Re: Synchronet BBS Compiling
By: Nightfox to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu Dec 05 2019 02:41 pm

I thought Borland's compilers were fairly popular in the early 90s. I remember them being fairly inexpensive, and I remember hearing a lot about Borland Turbo C and Borland Turbo C++ for DOS.. Also I seem to remember hearing that Borland's OWL GUI toolkit for C++ was at least somewhat popular for a time in the early-mid 90s.

Yes, and yes. Microsoft C was the professional choice, Borland Turbo Pascal and
C were geared to hobbyists and students.

Microsoft C didn't have an IDE back then, you needed to use a programmer's editor like Brief, and they had hooks into the compiler - so they could open the editor at the error encountered.

Turbo C and Quick C had built in editors/debuggers/&tc.

Turbo Pascal is still available; it's amazing how tiny the executable and libraries are.

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From: paul.quinn@3:640/1384.125.remove-12jz-this

To: Nightfox
Hi! Nightfox,

On 12/06/2019 09:44 AM, you wrote:

Don't forget the "goes to" operator. For example:
ag!
for (int i = 10; i --> 0; i--)

Basically, with i starting at 10 and goes to 0.

Ah, nup. I figure if we're going down on a 10 then we need a bang! procedure.

Cheers,
Paul.

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From: nightfox@DIGDIST.remove-tiw-this

To: poindexter FORTRAN
Re: Re: Synchronet BBS Compiling
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Netsurge on Thu Dec 05 2019 07:14 am

Microsoft C was *the* platform for coding on x86 at the time, and Turbo Pascal only wrote <64k .com files and their related overlays...

I thought Borland's compilers were fairly popular in the early 90s. I remember
them being fairly inexpensive, and I remember hearing a lot about Borland Turbo
C and Borland Turbo C++ for DOS.. Also I seem to remember hearing that Borland's OWL GUI
toolkit for C++ was at least somewhat popular for a time in the early-mid 90s.

Nightfox

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From: nightfox@DIGDIST.remove-fes-this

To: poindexter FORTRAN
Re: Re: Synchronet BBS Compiling
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Thu Dec 05 2019 05:31 pm

I thought Borland's compilers were fairly popular in the early 90s.
I remember them being fairly inexpensive, and I remember hearing a
lot about Borland Turbo C and Borland Turbo C++ for DOS.. Also I
seem to remember hearing that Borland's OWL GUI toolkit for C++ was
at least somewhat popular for a time in the early-mid 90s.

Yes, and yes. Microsoft C was the professional choice, Borland Turbo Pascal and C were geared to hobbyists and students.

Microsoft C didn't have an IDE back then, you needed to use a programmer's editor like Brief, and they had hooks into the compiler - so they could open the editor at the error encountered.

Ah, interesting. I didn't use the software development tools much back then, but I heard about some of them.

Turbo Pascal is still available; it's amazing how tiny the executable and libraries are.

Interesting.. I thought Borland's Turbo Pascal morphed into Delphi? Or perhaps that's something different?

Nightfox

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From: mortifis@ALLEYCAT.remove-p0t-this

To: Nightfox

Re: Re: Synchronet BBS Compiling
By: poindexter FORTRAN to Nightfox on Thu Dec 05 2019 05:31 pm

I thought Borland's compilers were fairly popular in the early 90s.
I remember them being fairly inexpensive, and I remember hearing a
lot about Borland Turbo C and Borland Turbo C++ for DOS.. Also I
seem to remember hearing that Borland's OWL GUI toolkit for C++ was
at least somewhat popular for a time in the early-mid 90s.

Yes, and yes. Microsoft C was the professional choice, Borland Turbo Pascal and C were geared to hobbyists and students.

Microsoft C didn't have an IDE back then, you needed to use a programmer's editor like Brief, and they had hooks into the compiler - so they could open the editor at the error encountered.

Ah, interesting. I didn't use the software development tools much back then, but I heard about some of them.

Turbo Pascal is still available; it's amazing how tiny the executable and libraries are.

Interesting.. I thought Borland's Turbo Pascal morphed into Delphi? Or perhaps that's something different?

Nightfox

Kinda, sorta ... Turbo Pascal 7 added Windows executable functions, which then branched off to be Turbo Pascal for Windows, with then was deprecated by Borland Pascal 7 which was then superseded by Delphi which was more native to Windows 32 bit, etc ...

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