Re: Re: Election Rules
By: Carol Shenkenberger to Nick Andre on Fri Jun 01 2018 08:53 pm

Re: Re: Election Rules
By: Nick Andre to Phil Kimble on Fri Jun 01 2018 06:58 am

I have received 2 unsolicated netmails directly from Ward Dossche
via the 1:1/130 node as witnessed in the seen-bys of his netmails.
The 2nd netmail was received within a hours of my post. This is a
direct violation of the residing Z1C's directions and election
rules.

In what way is receiving Netmail from Ward any indication that I am
violating any rules???

I'll skip to the chase. There is a HUGE differnce involved here.

I for example HIGHLY question if a netmail (different delivery) was targeted as a feed.

Nick, I missed that it was a netmail. I thought they indicated an actual feed of the echo and were looking for seen-bys as if you were feeding the echo to Ward or someone.

So my bad if I missed a beat there. I exchange netmail with Ward fairly often.
In fact, a few during the election. Ward and I do not always see eye-to-eye but we respect one another and are friends. When someone close to him died, he netmailed me for the flag ceremony used at military funerals which he then performed. We've chatted about his trips to the USA for decades and one day he may swing by Virginia Beach to see the Battleship memorial (he's a big fan of them). He netmailed right away when he heard my mother died last week.

I did get some out of Z1 discussion, but it was mostly emails from battlenet members (in another message, my note went out in email to my net combined with Battlenet, Zone 169 for some battlenet stuff). This email didn't do more that say there was an election and the name of the echo to get for further information. Most of those folks are also Z1 members but not all.

I got a couple of suggestions for possible candidates (before nominations were open mostly). I had to sadly inform one of them that Bob Seaborn had passed away 6 months ago. Your name was among them as was Dallas.

I also got netmailed and emailed by about 10 folks asking if I was running (pre nomination chatter again). In the end, I said I wasn't sure i could commit to the amount of time, but that I'd be active in the process of the election and a ready standby who knows how to keep her mouth shut if the new Z1C needs advice or a sounding board.

So back to Ward, he also asked if I was running. Nothing wrong with that at all. Thats just 2 old friends and it would be natural for him to ask. I'm the only still active Z1 person who had been a ZC. I got the same question from others.

We all know you and Ward get along due to software interaction. That you exchange netmails over that is a given. Dallas also gets gold stars on his report card for 'works well and plays with others'.

The last thing we need isn't going to happen because neither of you have this issue: Anti-other-zone mindset. That was in my starting messages here.

Although I am a little suprised we have only 2 candidates, I am delighted with both. We can't lose out in Z1, no matter which way it goes.
xxcarol
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Re: Re: Election Rules
By: Jeff Smith to Nick Andre on Thu May 31 2018 04:16 pm

Unfortionately, am being forced to apply a "Foul" to one of our
candidates for failing to h Z1 Election rules & numerous requests
form the current Z1C.

Just curious - do we have proof that someone read a Z1_Election
message via
Nick's system? Like, a message showing seen-bys and paths?
-+- SBBSecho 3.03-Win32
+ Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech
(1:218/700)

The majority voice states No. The artifacts provided is not significant.

--- Msged/LNX 6.1.2
* Origin: Bayhaus.net - Colorado Springs - Serving the FrontRange (1:128/2)

Re: Election Rules
By: Phil Kimble to All on Fri Jun 01 2018 01:07 pm

Based on the magnitude of positive comments, it is unanimous that there is no harm done. Therefore the election continues.

Thank you Phil
xxcarol
--- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
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Hello Kurt,

By: Jeff Smith to Nick Andre on Thu May 31 2018 04:16 pm

Unfortionately, am being forced to apply a "Foul" to one of our
candidates for failing to h Z1 Election rules & numerous requests form >>>> the current Z1C.

Just curious - do we have proof that someone read a Z1_Election message via Nick's system? Like, a message showing seen-bys and paths?

From what I understand what we have is an indication that a netmail or two may or may not have been routed through Nick's system. Even that seems to as yet unclear.

But instead of us continuing to debate the if he did or didn't part any further. How about we move past this momentary confusion and proceed with the election?


Jeff

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-3
* Origin: The Ouija Board (1:282/1031)

Re: Re: Election Rules
By: Kurt Weiske to Jeff Smith on Fri Jun 01 2018 01:04 pm

Just curious - do we have proof that someone read a Z1_Election message via Nick's system? Like, a message showing seen-bys and paths?

Kurt, I think if they had that, they'd have named the site he feeds that did it. For all we know, he simply netmailed candidates names and the rules. May have routed it and depending on how others routing setups are set, may have crossed a zone boundary.

Routing can be simple, or can be very complex. Example: I:275/93 routes a netmail to someone in Z3, it will come to me and pass directly to Scott Little in Z3. He doesnt know that, only that it will get there.

RVIA never passed but it was a simple representation of how we operate and it would (if maintained), have shown that path. Other options were INTRANS and NOBOGUS that come to mind as packet inspectors.

Either way, the only thing anyone can control is a feed to that first hop, but not what they do with it once it's on their own computer. The only thing you can do is remove the feed if they are 'acting up' but there's no valid way to blame a mail mover for shipping an echo to a valid node for that echo (in this case a Z1 sysop). Now if one of those intentionally released information that was not supposed to be released, thats on them. Not the mail mover, unless they are notified of the offending node and don't cut the feed.

Maybe I misread the note but it seemed 'someone' was clearly expressed but not sure it was one who fed even from him. Could have simply been someone in his region and not even fed from him since we are all free to feed from wherever we want. In fact, I feed a couple of folks not in R13. Have fun trying to blast my RC if I had a software glitch an sent something out that I shouldnt have. Don't even think about me being used to route netmails where the contents weren't releaseable as I do not read intransit netmail unless there is something 'wrong' and it can't route unless I do some sort of action.

xxcarol
--- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
* Origin: Shenk's Express, shenks.synchro.net (1:275/100)

Hi Nick,

On 31 May 18 19:29:30, Janis Kracht said the following to Nick Andre:

Are you allowing Ward to read the echo on your system?

No.

Good.. that is the way it should be. I have seen messages from Ward's system for example in the ZCC echo, that were direct exact quotes from this echo... that is why I asked you point blank.

Same here Nick.. and it is exactly why we don't need a Z2 backseat driver l >> Ward getting involved who:

Janis... whoever is deliberately attempting to coerce Phil into making an
unsubstantiated claim about my Hub system is much more of a threat than Ward's
ability to read an echo. The threat of being disqualified as a candidate on
that basis will only hurt the voters in the end. Not just anyone who voted for
me, but anyone voting. It undermines and taints all of these elections. I am very vocal on this because I stand to lose... without any proof whatsoever.

Nick, Ward is his OWN worst enemy.. Don't let him drag you down here... as I mentioned earlier, Ward contacted both of the election volunteers, in one case suggesting that Phil should allow a vote from a node, when I have right here the regional segments showing that this node was NOT in the nodelist for the cutoff nodelist - and in the second, it sure looks like Ward was getting a feed
from your system, or was at least able to read the messages.. Big deal? No, not
really... if reading/observing was all he was doing.... we'd all say
"so what".

But he wasn't. For instance:

In a netmail to Phil (copied to me by Phil), Ward typed:

===/clip/====
NETMAIL message #711 from Phil Kimble to Janis Kracht (PRIVATE) (read).
Entered on 31st May, 2018 at 07:12, 30 lines.

Subject: 1:128/2 Concerning the ZC1 election
============================================

!MSGID: 1:128/2 5b0f99de
!PID: Msged/LNX 6.1.2
!CHRS: IBMPC 2
!CODEPAGE: 437

Hello Phil,

I understand you run the ZC1 election and I will be accused of interfering with
out of zone business, but I'm taking the risk anyway.

It has been brought to my attantion you have some issues with non-listed voters.

You need to be aware that for quite some time Janis has been having issues with
the nodelist/dailylst generation where depending upon the date different region
segments will be used, I think it is a makenl-problem for systems under Linux which processes certain things differently, for example wildcards. At certain days of the week this gives an erroneous output.

It is very well possible that the dailylst created on the same date as the nodelist you have selected for your election, carries fresher data than the nodelist of the same day.

Therefor it is possible, but I don't know of course, that a sysop is correctly listed in the dailylst and incorrect, or even missing, in the nodelist. If that's the case, I hope you will agree with me, that the sysop should not be the victim which essentially is a technical problem between two platforms (Windows and Linux).

This is the only thing I care to say about it, and it won't be in public. It's your call. I hope this information was useful. Thank you for being available to
run that election BTW.

\%/@rd

===/clip/===

Phil knows I have the regional segments here.. we've discussed my sending them to him should a question come up regarding a listed sysop's voting or not.

It is this interference that is the problem.

I seriously doubt anyone voting in this election can be influenced by him.

Same here, but that is not the problem.

Take care,
Janis

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-3
* Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)

Nick,

I have received 2 unsolicated netmails directly from Ward Dossche via the 1:1/130 node as witnessed in the seen-bys of his netmails. The 2nd netmail was
received within a hours of my post. This is a direct violation of the residing Z1C's directions and election rules.

Mr Fred Riccio has received unsolicated netmails from the same gentlman. This has nothing to do with the Z1C-Z2C relationship. I personally have nothing but respect for Mr Dossche as his stellar behavior in other echos is commendable. But this isnt about emotions, it is about a fair election process free from outside interference.

Please review the Seen-By in the below netmails and confirm that you are the Sysop responsible for 1:1:130 as per the FidoNet Nodelist.

- Everyone can verify the SEEN-BY and PATH of all the messages in
this echo.
- There are no point-systems being fed.
- I do not run a web server providing access to Zone 1 echoes or ANY echoes.
- Another system in this zone has already been proven to allow Web access.
- I am more than willing to share tosser, BinkD logs, etc.
- Have a look at my system via. Anydesk or Teamviewer.

----- ward1.txt begins -----
Date: 2018-05-31 11:38:09
From: Ward Dossche of 2:292/854
To: Phil Kimble of 1:128/2
Subj: Concerning the ZC1 election
Attr: Pvt Rcv
Conf: NetmailArea

INTL 1:128/2 2:292/854
Hello Phil,

I understand you run the ZC1 election and I will be accused of interfering with

out of zone business, but I'm taking the risk anyway.

It has been brought to my attantion you have some issues with non-listed voters.

You need to be aware that for quite some time Janis has been having issues with

the nodelist/dailylst generation where depending upon the date different region

segments will be used, I think it is a makenl-problem for systems under Linux which processes certain things differently, for example wildcards. At certain days of the week this gives an erroneous output.

It is very well possible that the dailylst created on the same date as the nodelist you have selected for your election, carries fresher data than the nodelist of the same day.

Therefor it is possible, but I don't know of course, that a sysop is correctly listed in the dailylst and incorrect, or even missing, in the nodelist. If that's the case, I hope you will agree with me, that the sysop should not be the victim which essentially is a technical problem between two platforms (Windows and Linux).

This is the only thing I care to say about it, and it won't be in public. It's your call. I hope this information was useful.

Thank you for being available to run that election BTW.

\%/@rd


Via D'Bridge 3.99 1:1/130 05/31 05:41

----- ward1.txt ends -----

----- ward.txt begins -----
Date: 2018-05-31 16:29:41
From: Ward Dossche of 2:292/854
To: Phil Kimble of 1:128/2
Subj: Re: Z1C Election
Attr: Pvt Rcv
Conf: NetmailArea

INTL 1:128/2 2:292/854
Hello Phil,

BTW: Can anyone explain why I received a netmail from the Z2C on this
very topic when this is a "Zone 1" election?

To help you out ... without an agenda ... because it seemed little known or cared about that the Z1 nodelist is out of sync with reality.

And that ain't the fault of the RC but of the ZC.

I had not expected anyone from within your zone to raise the subject. At least we now know netmail works.

BTW, the expression is 'yelling foul', not 'yelling fowl'.

Enjoy the coming week-end,

\%/@rd


Via D'Bridge 3.99 1:1/130 05/31 10:49

----- ward.txt ends -----

--- Msged/LNX 6.1.2
* Origin: Bayhaus.net - Colorado Springs - Serving the FrontRange (1:128/2)

Hello Nick,

On 31 May 18 16:16:46, Jeff Smith said the following to Nick Andre:

Janis has asked/requested several times in the Z1C echo as well as in other >> admin echos that security to the Z1C and the election echo be checked and
tightened if necessary. I am not making a judgment of guilt Nick. I am just >> attempting to answer a question that you expressed.

Judgement and accusation have been made against me by Phil without proof, his message strongly implies that I was asked to restrict echoes and failed to do so. That is simply not true. I have never fed Zone 1 Admin echoes to non-Zone 1 systems. EVER.

I agree that evidence should be promptly provided to support an accusation of alleged impropriety. In my opinion the accusation would have been better presented during the "Opportunity to yell fowl and fix errors" time period of June 11 -> 24.

This is exactly the type of political BS that I really wanted to avoid.

As was my hope also Nick. I think and hope that the truth will emerge and the responsibility will be rightly placed where it belongs.


Jeff

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-3
* Origin: The Ouija Board (1:282/1031)

Hey Jeff!

In my opinion the accusation would have been better presented
during the "Opportunity to yell fowl and fix errors" time period
of June 11 -> 24.

Amen. However the election powers that be have furthered muddied the waters by
posting so-called evidence that proves nothing towards their claim while votes are being cast. I can't help but think that this has a detrimental effect on the continuation of vote casting.

I think and hope that the truth will emerge and the
responsibility will be rightly placed where it belongs.

I for one believe it is already too late but share your hope. However I believe the current election has lost all credibility ... if it actually had any to start with that is.

Life is good,
Maurice

... Don't cry for me I have vi.
--- GNU bash, version 4.4.19(1)-release (x86_64-silvermont-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

On 01 Jun 18 00:52:28, Janis Kracht said the following to Nick Andre:

Phil knows I have the regional segments here.. we've discussed my sending t to him should a question come up regarding a listed sysop's voting or not.

It is this interference that is the problem.

Hi Janis, sorry but I do not see the interference by Ward here, I do not see anything remotely suggesting interference.

I am beginning to share the same sentiments as others... who cares, because other zones are not voting?

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

On 31 May 18 23:27:38, Phil Kimble said the following to Nick Andre:

Hi Phil,

I have received 2 unsolicated netmails directly from Ward Dossche via the 1:1/130 node as witnessed in the seen-bys of his netmails. The 2nd netmail was received within a hours of my post. This is a direct violation of the residing Z1C's directions and election rules.

In what way is receiving Netmail from Ward any indication that I am
violating any rules???

Those lines in question are VIA lines... not SEEN-BY lines.

Ward is set to route the majority of all Zone 2 Netmail through my system. He has been doing so since Bob Seaborn passed away, in fact some time before that. As I explained in the beginning - Many systems have direct feeds here.

When a Netmail is routed through any system, the VIA line is added along the way.

So what has happened, is Ward felt the urge to Netmail you and route it through my system. I do not read or disclose in-transit Netmail, as that is a huge no-no, but from what you have posted here, I do not see any attempt by
him to thwart the election.

Routing Netmail and VIA kludges have absolutely nothing to do with the
Zone 1 echoes, where a SEEN-BY kludge is added for every system that is
linked to the conference of the message processed in the chain.

This is Fido tech-101...

The general consensus amongst RC's was to agree to not to share the contents of the election echo... I don't share Netmail, I only route it; and the leak
of the echo will be almost impossible to prove.

Sorry but there is no interference here, no proof, and this could of easily been answered during the "fowl time". Not in the manner in which you chose to handle this.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Phil Kimble wrote to Nick Andre on 05-31-18 23:27 <=-

I have received 2 unsolicated netmails directly from Ward Dossche via
the 1:1/130 node as witnessed in the seen-bys of his netmails. The 2nd netmail was received within a hours of my post. This is a direct
violation of the residing Z1C's directions and election rules.

Mr Fred Riccio has received unsolicated netmails from the same
gentlman. This has nothing to do with the Z1C-Z2C relationship. I personally have nothing but respect for Mr Dossche as his stellar
behavior in other echos is commendable. But this isnt about emotions,
it is about a fair election process free from outside interference.

Please review the Seen-By in the below netmails and confirm that you
are the Sysop responsible for 1:1:130 as per the FidoNet Nodelist.

- Everyone can verify the SEEN-BY and PATH of all the messages in
this echo.
- There are no point-systems being fed.
- I do not run a web server providing access to Zone 1 echoes or ANY echoes.
- Another system in this zone has already been proven to allow Web
access.
- I am more than willing to share tosser, BinkD logs, etc.
- Have a look at my system via. Anydesk or Teamviewer.

----- ward1.txt begins -----
Date: 2018-05-31 11:38:09
From: Ward Dossche of 2:292/854
To: Phil Kimble of 1:128/2
Subj: Concerning the ZC1 election
Attr: Pvt Rcv
Conf: NetmailArea

INTL 1:128/2 2:292/854

Here is the kludge line for the netmail. It is very easy to spoof the 1:1/130 address in a tagline. You should know better than this.


--

Bill

Telnet: tequilamockingbirdonline.net
Web: bbs.tequilamockingbirdonline.net
FTP: ftp.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:2121
IRC: irc.tequilamockingbirdonline.net Ports: 6661-6670 SSL: +6697
Radio: radio.tequilamockingbirdonline.net:8010/live


... Computer Hacker wanted. Send resume to Donald J. Trump, Leavenworth, KS
--- MultiMail/Win32 v0.50
* Origin: TequilaMockingbird Online - Toms River, NJ (1:266/404)

On 01 Jun 18 00:52:28, Janis Kracht said the following to Nick Andre:

Nick, Ward is his OWN worst enemy.. Don't let him drag you down here... as mentioned earlier, Ward contacted both of the election volunteers, in one c suggesting that Phil should allow a vote from a node, when I have right her the regional segments showing that this node was NOT in the nodelist for th cutoff nodelist - and in the second, it sure looks like Ward was getting a feed from your system, or was at least able to read the messages.. Big deal No, not really... if reading/observing was all he was doing.... we'd all "so what".

Janis, there is no proof that Ward is getting any feed to this echo from my system. I have asked for this, and what is being presented is private Netmail.

I accept and route Netmail for many systems. Echomail is a different ballgame.

I do not share or post in-transit or private Netmail either; but I see that being presented in this echo. Is that not supposed to be a huge no-no?

Where does it state in the election rules that I specifically must reject and bounce private Netmail from Ward that routes through my system?

Just curious.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

On Thu May-31-2018 13:33, Phil Kimble (1:128/2) wrote to All:

cc: Nick Andre

While I have no real interest in the election process, it is my
sole purpose to ensure that the process is conducted socially &
fairly. Unfortionately, I am being forced to apply a "Foul" to one
of our candidates for failing to heed Z1 Election rules & numerous requests form the current Z1C.

Post your proof.

At this time, Unless Mr Nick Andre ensures that all Zone
connections external to Zone 1 to this forum are disconnected, I am prepared to disqualify him from the election.

Can you assure us you are not sharing the vote tally with others? If you are not, can you prove it?

To date, the election committe have received 3 different attempts
by others zones to influence the election process. As previously
stated, this is a Zone 1 Election, closed to only nodelisted Zone 1 Sysops, and all non-Zone 1 connections to the Z1_Election echo must
be disconnected.

That's a joke since they are ineligible to vote and furthermore, we can't be influenced or intimidated by outsiders.

This is a fair & socially acceptable warning that any further
contact from fidonet sysops outside of Zone 1 will result in disqualification.

And your proof is where? In the VIA lines of routed NETmail?

To proceed, Mr Nick Andre must physically check, confirm, & provide evidence that all connections to the Z1_Election are only Zone 1
sysops. This must be completed NLT 1 June 2018. This includes all
nodes under within the R12 AND 1:1/130.

Hogwash. Nick wouldn't do something like that and for you to take the "suggestions" of others without showing us your proof is equally laughable.

Sorry Nick that I have to do this, but interference in the election process cannot be tolerated.

Again, show us your proof.


Regards,

Roger
--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: NCS BBS - Houma, LoUiSiAna - (1:3828/7)

Hello Janis!

01 Jun 18 00:52, you wrote to Nick Andre:

Janis... whoever is deliberately attempting to coerce Phil into
making an unsubstantiated claim about my Hub system is much more of
a threat than Ward's ability to read an echo. The threat of being
disqualified as a candidate on that basis will only hurt the voters
in the end. Not just anyone who voted for me, but anyone voting. It
undermines and taints all of these elections. I am very vocal on
this because I stand to lose... without any proof whatsoever.

Nick, Ward is his OWN worst enemy.. Don't let him drag you down
here... as I mentioned earlier, Ward contacted both of the election volunteers, in one case suggesting that Phil should allow a vote from
a node, when I have right here the regional segments showing that this node was NOT in the nodelist for the cutoff nodelist - and in the
second, it sure looks like Ward was getting a feed from your system,
or was at least able to read the messages.. Big deal? No, not
really... if reading/observing was all he was doing.... we'd all
say "so what".

But he wasn't. For instance:

In a netmail to Phil (copied to me by Phil), Ward typed:

===/clip/====
NETMAIL message #711 from Phil Kimble to Janis Kracht (PRIVATE)
(read).
Entered on 31st May, 2018 at 07:12, 30 lines.

Subject: 1:128/2 Concerning the ZC1 election
============================================

!MSGID: 1:128/2 5b0f99de
!PID: Msged/LNX 6.1.2
!CHRS: IBMPC 2
!CODEPAGE: 437

Hello Phil,

<snip>

===/clip/===

Phil knows I have the regional segments here.. we've discussed my
sending them to him should a question come up regarding a listed
sysop's voting or not.

It is this interference that is the problem.

Do we not trust our Election Coordinators enough to look at the message, and say "fuck off, you have no voice in this election?" If we don't, those people have no business coordinating an election. It should have ended there. The netmail could have been passed on to the you so that you were aware of his attempts, and to whomever was elected to replace you after the election.

I seriously doubt anyone voting in this election can be influenced
by him.

Same here, but that is not the problem.

Once again, if this were true, it wouldn't have even made it into this echo.


Hindsight is 20/20. The damage (if any) is done. Ward's derived enough entertainment from this, and I do not deign to humor him any longer on this topic.


Mike


... A perfect woman is one that is inflated to 40psi.
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20161221
* Origin: War Ensemble - warensemble.com - Appleton, WI (1:154/30)

Hello Phil!

31 May 18 23:27, you wrote to Nick Andre:

Nick,

I have received 2 unsolicated netmails directly from Ward Dossche via
the
1:1/130 node as witnessed in the seen-bys of his netmails. The 2nd netmail was received within a hours of my post. This is a direct
violation of the residing Z1C's directions and election rules.

Netmail != Echomail. Many systems route netmail, did it not occur to you that
Ward may be sending mail through that system on purpose just to get this kind of reaction?


Fidonet has been around for how long now? Do we not know the difference between how Netmail and Echomail works, or that many systems accept and route netmail to/from just about anywhere?

Just admit you fell for his trap and move on.


Mike


... I'd love to, but my bathroom tiles need grouting.
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20161221
* Origin: War Ensemble - warensemble.com - Appleton, WI (1:154/30)

Re: Re: Election Rules
By: Phil Kimble to Nick Andre on Thu May 31 2018 11:27 pm

Nick,

I have received 2 unsolicated netmails directly from Ward Dossche via the 1:1/130 node as witnessed in the seen-bys of his netmails.

Since when do NetMail messages have seen-by's? "Seen-by Lines" are an element of standard EchoMail messages (http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-0004.001), not NetMail.

digital man

Synchronet "Real Fact" #38:
Synchronet first supported Windows NT-based operating systems w/v3.00b (2000). Norco, CA WX: 70.8øF, 58.0% humidity, 1 mph NW wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
--- SBBSecho 3.04-Linux
* Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (1:103/705)

Based on the magnitude of positive comments, it is unanimous that there is no harm done. Therefore the election continues.



--- Msged/LNX 6.1.2
* Origin: Bayhaus.net - Colorado Springs - Serving the FrontRange (1:128/2)

Based on the magnitude of positive comments, it is unanimous that there is no harm done. Therefore the election continues.

Good, I can go back to eating cookies over here <grin>

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-3
* Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)

On 06/01/18, Janis Kracht said the following...

Good, I can go back to eating cookies over here <grin>

Janis,

I'm sure your original platform when you were elected included free cookies
for everyone. :)

Ian

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A38 2018/01/01 (Linux/32)
* Origin: The Parity Error BBS - Kelowna, BC, Canada (1:153/250)

Re: Re: Election Rules
By: Jeff Smith to Nick Andre on Thu May 31 2018 04:16 pm

Unfortionately, am being forced to apply a "Foul" to one of our
candidates for failing to h Z1 Election rules & numerous requests form
the current Z1C.

Just curious - do we have proof that someone read a Z1_Election message via Nick's system? Like, a message showing seen-bys and paths?
--- SBBSecho 3.03-Win32
* Origin: http://realitycheckbbs.org | tomorrow's retro tech (1:218/700)

Hi Ian,

Good, I can go back to eating cookies over here <grin>

Janis,

I'm sure your original platform when you were elected included free cookies for everyone. :)

Lol :) Well, I haven't pushed it with the candidates since you know the sugar thing these days is frowned upon by some <grin>

Take care,
Janis

--- BBBS/Li6 v4.10 Toy-3
* Origin: Prism bbs (1:261/38)

On Friday June 01, 2018, Rob Swindell said to Phil Kimble...

Since when do NetMail messages have seen-by's? "Seen-by Lines" are an element

of standard EchoMail messages (http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-0004.001), not NetMail.

Clearly he doesn't know the difference between VIAs and Seen-Bys.

frank!netsurge ! hysteriabbs.com ! zeus 1.7 ! amiga 4ooo
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Hello Janis.

<On 01Jun2018 15:55 Janis Kracht (1:261/38) wrote a message to Phil Kimble regarding Election Rules >

Based on the magnitude of positive comments, it is unanimous that
there is no harm done. Therefore the election continues.

Good, I can go back to eating cookies over here <grin>

That's something your browser does. ;-)

Best regards,
Marc

--- timEd/2 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Sursum Corda! BBS-Huntsville,AL-bbs.sursum-corda.com (1:396/45)

Based on the magnitude of positive comments, it is unanimous that
there is no harm done. Therefore the election continues.

Good, I can go back to eating cookies over here <grin>

That's something your browser does. ;-)

Lol :)

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On 31 May 18 13:33:16, Phil Kimble said the following to All:

cc: Nick Andre

While I have no real interest in the election process, it is my sole purpos to ensure that the process is conducted socially & fairly. Unfortionately, am being forced to apply a "Foul" to one of our candidates for failing to h Z1 Election rules & numerous requests form the current Z1C.

Phil, which numerous requests???

I have not received any messages from Janis, either here, in Z1C or Netmail, other than Netmails unrelated to the issue at hand.

At this time, Unless Mr Nick Andre ensures that all Zone connections exter to Zone 1 to this forum are disconnected, I am prepared to disqualify him f the election.

Although I run a large Hub system, I can confirm that no non-zone-1 system has connections to this echo. I'm not quite sure how to prove that, other than:

- Everyone can verify the SEEN-BY and PATH of all the messages in this echo.
- There are no point-systems being fed.
- I do not run a web server providing access to Zone 1 echoes or ANY echoes.
- Another system in this zone has already been proven to allow Web access.
- I am more than willing to share tosser, BinkD logs, etc.
- Have a look at my system via. Anydesk or Teamviewer.

Will the proof of this accusation be presented for discussion?

There is a difference between a Z1C not liking a candidate, and a Z1C who has concrete proof that a candidate is doing something illicit in the election.

I believe there has to be some due-process here?

Sorry Nick that I have to do this, but interference in the election process cannot be tolerated.

Any interference is solely due to the fact that there is no such thing as a private echo, and it all comes down to a person's word that it is not being fed to other systems.

I am running on a campaign to help this network. I really have nothing to gain from the end-result, other than adding a script to compile nodelists and
take shit from a crazy Belgian, and unless proof is provided; this is nothing more than a baseless accusation.

Show us all the evidence please.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Hello nick,

On 31 May 18 13:33:16, Phil Kimble said the following to All:

While I have no real interest in the election process, it is my sole purpos >> to ensure that the process is conducted socially & fairly. Unfortionately, >> am being forced to apply a "Foul" to one of our candidates for failing to h >> Z1 Election rules & numerous requests form the current Z1C.

Phil, which numerous requests???

Janis has asked/requested several times in the Z1C echo as well as in other Z1 admin echos that security to the Z1C and the election echo be checked and tightened if necessary. I am not making a judgment of quilt Nick. I am just attempting to answer a question that you expressed.

Jeff

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On 31 May 18 16:16:46, Jeff Smith said the following to Nick Andre:

Janis has asked/requested several times in the Z1C echo as well as in other admin echos that security to the Z1C and the election echo be checked and tightened if necessary. I am not making a judgment of quilt Nick. I am jus attempting to answer a question that you expressed.

Judgement and accusation have been made against me by Phil without proof, his message strongly implies that I was asked to restrict echoes and failed to do so. That is simply not true. I have never fed Zone 1 Admin echoes to non-Zone 1 systems. EVER.

I will contest the end-result of the election if necessary.

This is exactly the type of political BS that I really wanted to avoid.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

On 05/31/18, Nick Andre said the following...

... and take shit from a crazy Belgian, ...

Lol

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A38 2018/01/01 (Linux/32)
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On 31 May 18 16:16:46, Jeff Smith said the following to Nick Andre:

Janis has asked/requested several times in the Z1C echo as well as in other >> admin echos that security to the Z1C and the election echo be checked and >> tightened if necessary. I am not making a judgment of quilt Nick. I am jus >> attempting to answer a question that you expressed.

Judgement and accusation have been made against me by Phil without proof, his message strongly implies that I was asked to restrict echoes and failed to do so. That is simply not true. I have never fed Zone 1 Admin echoes to non-Zone 1 systems. EVER.

Are you allowing Ward to read the echo on your system?

I will contest the end-result of the election if necessary.

This is exactly the type of political BS that I really wanted to avoid.

Same here Nick.. and it is exactly why we don't need a Z2 backseat driver like Ward getting involved who:

1) posts message content directly from this echo elsewhere 2) tries to influence voting officials as to who may or may not vote in this election
3) has only one purpose, it seems - to disrupt this election... and campaign for you? I'm thinking of the piano, etc. business that he literally quoted in the ZCC echo.

<sigh>

Thanks,
Janis

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Re: Election Rules
By: Phil Kimble to All on Thu May 31 2018 01:33 pm

At this time, Unless Mr Nick Andre ensures that all Zone connections external to Zone 1 to this forum are disconnected, I am prepared to disqualify him from the election.

To date, the election committe have received 3 different attempts by
others zones to influence the election process. As previously stated, this is a Zone 1 Election, closed to only nodelisted Zone 1 Sysops, and all non-Zone 1 connections to the Z1_Election echo must be disconnected.

This is a fair & socially acceptable warning that any further contact from
fidonet sysops outside of Zone 1 will result in disqualification.

To proceed, Mr Nick Andre must physically check, confirm, & provide
evidence that all connections to the Z1_Election are only Zone 1 sysops. This must be completed NLT 1 June 2018. This includes all nodes under
within the R12 AND 1:130.

Sorry Nick that I have to do this, but interference in the election
process cannot be tolerated.

Phil, I do not see what is going on other than obviously some information was passed, but to physically check every node in his region, singling only HIM out signals that you know something that probably he doesn't even know. Fill him and the rest of us in on it or stop the viled threats?

Otherwise you want him to grab his car and get search warrents for all the R12 sysops?

Folks, I am a regular NC now, but this is going off the deep end on hating on Z2. I don't actually *care* that they are interested. In fact, I would be suprised if they were not.

The worst a Z2 sysop has done is send a netmail from an undisclosed person who posed a possible question that was so badly phrased as to be useless. I turned it around to something that might be useful (and i feel the answers were) and posted it still in the discussion phase.

Why so paranoid? So seriously, they know who we are voting on. No one said anything bad and now we are electing. All on our own because we are not stupid people and so are capable of that.

A big thing we don't need, is anti-other zone shennanigans here. In fact, I'd vote down a candidate in a heartbeat, if they can't work outside Z1 but the ZC job is mainly ZC<-->ZC and you have to be functional at that to make it work.

xxcarol
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On 31 May 18 19:29:30, Janis Kracht said the following to Nick Andre:

Are you allowing Ward to read the echo on your system?

No.

Same here Nick.. and it is exactly why we don't need a Z2 backseat driver l Ward getting involved who:

Janis... whoever is deliberately attempting to coerce Phil into making an unsubstantiated claim about my Hub system is much more of a threat than Ward's ability to read an echo. The threat of being disqualified as a candidate on that basis will only hurt the voters in the end. Not just anyone who voted for me, but anyone voting. It undermines and taints all of these elections. I am very vocal on this because I stand to lose... without any proof whatsoever.

I do not see anyone campaigning on my behalf nor would I encourage it, because campaigning has ended. It just so happens that NOW we are having "problems".

I seriously doubt anyone voting in this election can be influenced by him.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

Re: Re: Election Rules
By: Nick Andre to Jeff Smith on Thu May 31 2018 06:30 pm

Janis has asked/requested several times in the Z1C echo as well as
in other admin echos that security to the Z1C and the election echo
be checked and tightened if necessary. I am not making a judgment
of quilt Nick. I am jus attempting to answer a question that you
expressed.

Judgement and accusation have been made against me by Phil without proof, his message strongly implies that I was asked to restrict echoes and
failed to do so. That is simply not true. I have never fed Zone 1 Admin echoes to non-Zone 1 systems. EVER.

Agreed.

I will contest the end-result of the election if necessary.

This is exactly the type of political BS that I really wanted to avoid.

Unfortunately we have some who for now are guessing at the wind.

I don't direct feed any Z1 echos outside Z1 either.
--- SBBSecho 2.12-Win32
* Origin: Shenk's Express, shenks.synchro.net (1:275/100)

cc: Nick Andre

While I have no real interest in the election process, it is my sole purpose to
ensure that the process is conducted socially & fairly. Unfortionately, I am being forced to apply a "Foul" to one of our candidates for failing to heed Z1 Election rules & numerous requests form the current Z1C.

At this time, Unless Mr Nick Andre ensures that all Zone connections external to Zone 1 to this forum are disconnected, I am prepared to disqualify him from the election.

To date, the election committe have received 3 different attempts by others zones to influence the election process. As previously stated, this is a Zone 1
Election, closed to only nodelisted Zone 1 Sysops, and all non-Zone 1 connections to the Z1_Election echo must be disconnected.

This is a fair & socially acceptable warning that any further contact from fidonet sysops outside of Zone 1 will result in disqualification.

To proceed, Mr Nick Andre must physically check, confirm, & provide evidence that all connections to the Z1_Election are only Zone 1 sysops. This must be completed NLT 1 June 2018. This includes all nodes under within the R12 AND 1:1/130.

Sorry Nick that I have to do this, but interference in the election process cannot be tolerated.

Phil

--- Msged/LNX 6.1.2
* Origin: Bayhaus.net - Colorado Springs - Serving the FrontRange (1:128/2)

* Original to: All
* Carbon Copies: Nick Andre


While I have no real interest in the election process, it is my sole purpose to
ensure that the process is conducted socially & fairly. Unfortionately, I am being forced to apply a "Foul" to one of our candidates for failing to heed Z1 Election rules & numerous requests form the current Z1C.

At this time, Unless Mr Nick Andre ensures that all Zone connections external to Zone 1 to this forum are disconnected, I am prepared to disqualify him from the election.

To date, the election committe have received 3 different attempts by others zones to influence the election process. As previously stated, this is a Zone 1
Election, closed to only nodelisted Zone 1 Sysops, and all non-Zone 1 connections to the Z1_Election echo must be disconnected.

This is a fair & socially acceptable warning that any further contact from fidonet sysops outside of Zone 1 will result in disqualification.

To proceed, Mr Nick Andre must physically check, confirm, & provide evidence that all connections to the Z1_Election are only Zone 1 sysops. This must be completed NLT 1 June 2018. This includes all nodes under within the R12 AND 1:130.

Sorry Nick that I have to do this, but interference in the election process cannot be tolerated.

Phil

--- Msged/LNX 6.1.2
* Origin: Bayhaus.net - Colorado Springs - Serving the FrontRange (1:128/2)

On Fri Jun-01-2018 13:07, Phil Kimble (1:128/2) wrote to All:

Based on the magnitude of positive comments, it is unanimous that
there is no harm done. Therefore the election continues.

The only thing missing from that note is a puublic apology to Nick.


Regards,

Roger
--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+ DOS4GW
* Origin: NCS BBS - Houma, LoUiSiAna - (1:3828/7)

Hello Roger.

<On 03Jun2018 07:51 Roger Nelson (1:3828/7) wrote a message to Phil Kimble regarding Election Rules >

Based on the magnitude of positive comments, it is unanimous that
there is no harm done. Therefore the election continues.

The only thing missing from that note is a puublic apology to Nick.

Here, here.

Best regards,
Marc

--- timEd/2 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Sursum Corda! BBS-Huntsville,AL-bbs.sursum-corda.com (1:396/45)

On Sun Jun-03-2018 09:59, Marc Lewis (1:396/45) wrote to Roger Nelson:

<On 03Jun2018 07:51 Roger Nelson (1:3828/7) wrote a message to Phil
Kimble regarding Election Rules >

Based on the magnitude of positive comments, it is unanimous that
there is no harm done. Therefore the election continues.

The only thing missing from that note is a puublic apology to Nick.

Here, here.

It would be the right thing to do, so we can only hope he does it.


Regards,

Roger
--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: NCS BBS - Houma, LoUiSiAna - (1:3828/7)